Another West Country Payne Family

I've spent more time on this blog site discussing colonial and pre-colonial Paynes in Somerset (places like Hutton/Criston) than I have on the Paynes of Gloucestershire. There were at least two major and quite distinguished Payne families in Gloucestershire that are profiled in two different visitations of that county. The first and earlier visitation (1623) details the Paynes of Rodborough. The later visitation (1682-3) provides information on another group of Paynes in the area of Coletrope. Both Rodborough and Coletrope are south of the city of Gloucester and near towns and villages such as Standish, Quedgeley, Stroud, Tuffley, Stonehouse, Paganhill, and Painswick. Those two locations are less than ten miles apart, but the coat of arms given for the Paynes of Rodbourough and Spillman Court (1623: argent, a chevron azure between three mullets pierced gules) is quite different from that of the arms of the Paynes of Coletrope (1682-3: three roundles and on a chief embattled three roundles).

More attention has seemed to been placed by Payne researchers on the Paynes of Rodborough. Patrick Payne has presented evidence of a linkage of these Rodborough Paynes (many in the clothing business) to the Paynes of Huntingdonshire and the Paynes of Suffolk (both branches which had later American settlers/colonists). Patrick has suggested that there were three brothers (Robert, William, and Edmund) who were sons of Thomas Payne and Margaret Pulteney. Robert's branch became the Paynes of Huntingdonshire, William's branch became the Paynes of Rodborough, co. Gloucestershire, and Edmund's branch became the Paynes of Suffolk. In 2004 and based on the material that Patrick graciously shared with me then, he provided much more information on the colonial American connections of the Paynes of Huntingdonshire and the Paynes of Suffolk than he did for the Rodborough Paynes. Although the Paynes of Rodborough had connections to colonial trade and merchants, I've yet to find any definite proof that descendants of these Rodborough Paynes settled in America. This certainly seems an open possibility, though.

The Paynes of Coletrope seem just as interesting as those from the Rodborough family. Both of these two Payne branches produced mayors of the city of Gloucester. Thomas Payne from the Rodborough branch was a high-profile business leader in the mid-1500s who had an impressive home in Gloucester and was said to have entertained visiting royalty there. The Paynes of Coletrope actually had a son, father, grandfather, and great-grandfather all who served terms later as mayors of the city of Gloucester, and one of these Paynes was a member of Parliament in the late 1600s. Capel Payne (son of a Capel Payne) married the daughter of Sir George Hampson (4th baronet). Capel's wife Jane was one of the original five women of the bedchamber of the Princess of Wales (Augusta of Saxe-Gotha, wife of Frederick, son of King George II, and mother of King George III). Jane Payne served the Dowager Princess for over thirty years (1736-67). Her father-in-law, Capel Payne of Westminster, was of the Inner Temple, and one of his Majesty's learned counsels of the Court of the Dutchy of Lancaster. This Capel Payne's father was Robert Payne who married Anna (dau. of William Capel of Gloucester). Robert Payne was Gloucester mayor in 1692 and 1703 and a MP for the county from 1695-98. Robert Payne's brother Edward was a London grocer. Their father was also a Robert Payne who had earlier served as Gloucester mayor and had married Elizabeth Veale from Longford, Glou. The earliest Coletrope Payne given in the 1682-3 visitation was another Robert Payne who died in about 1620 and married a daughter of Wayte. It seems likely this was an Elizabeth Wayte who married a Robert Payne in 1584 in the nearby town of Standish.

Many questions remain about these two Payne families of Gloucestershire. Although the two visitations display contrasting Payne coats of arms, their proximity and the presence of clothiers and Gloucester mayors in both families suggest the likelihood that Robert Payne (m. Eliz. Wayte) of Coletrope is a yet-to-be traced descendant of William Payne of Rodborough and Spillman Court. Perhaps further research by myself or others will better answer this and other questions about these two Payne families.

More Colonial Connections

This is a rather long post that I'm also putting on the Payne Rootsweb listserv.

William Payne of Watertown and Ipswich (Massachusetts), his partners, and kin were very involved with iron mining there. There was also early mining activity along the Rappahannock River in Virginia near where John Payne (d. 1689) resided. There are some records also, including those that researcher Patrick Payne has previously mentioned, in which colonial Paynes in Virginia had business connections to others in New England.

The two early American mining initiatives were supported and financed at times by business interests in England, particularly from investors and iron merchants in the Bristol area. Wealthy Puritan, and later Quaker, merchants in Bristol and London were very active in colonial markets of tobacco, iron, sugar, and certain other commodities. Patrick has also shared many surnames of traders and mariners who did business with and/or were related to Paynes in this colonial era. Certain surnames, such as Brayne/Braine and Knight, though, seem to me to show more or continuing involvement with London area or West Country Paynes.

The Lyde family of the West Country could certainly be added to that surname list. Lyonel Lyde was mayor of Bristol (Engl.) in 1735, and he resided for a while earlier in Virginia. He was a wealthy iron and slave trader and was also one of the most active merchants importing tobacco from Virginia into England. He married Anna Maria/Marie Payne after the death of his first wife, whom he had married in Virginia. This Anna Maria was the daughter of Benjamin Payne who resided at times in both Chippenham and Marlborough in the county of Wiltshire. Benjamin Payne (d. 1714) was a surgeon who also worked in other towns in that county, such as Hilmarton and Preshute. His wife was Mary Mortimer, the daughter of William Mortimer of Lyneham, Wilshire, by his second wife. Benjamin Payne’s heiress was this Anna Maria who married Bristol mayor Lyonel Lyde. Lyonel Lyde apparently named one of his trading ships, the Anna Maria of Bristol, after his wife and/or his daughter. This ship and its cargo were seized by the Spanish in 1724 on a voyage from Jamaica to Bristol, but, through negotiation, were returned or restored to its owners a few years later.

Not much seems available to identify the particular ancestors of this Benjamin Payne, surgeon, of Wiltshire. The book History of Hertfordshire does show the arms of the four families in Sir Lyonel Lyde’s (son of mayor Lyonel and Anna Maria Payne Lyde) heraldry, including the arms of his maternal ancestors, the Paynes and Mortimers. The Payne arms were “lion rampant sable, on a chief gules, three crosses crosslet fitchee.” Of the many Payne arms in heraldry books, this description seems a bit closer to me to the known ones for the Paynes of Hutton, Somerset or perhaps the Jersey Payns. Paynes in the 1500s in Hutton (Soms.) had at least one family connection to Paynes who came from the Lulworth, Dorset area and probably derived from the influential Robert and Roger Fitzpayn line a couple of centuries earlier in the West Country. The early Paynes from certain parts of Dorset and Devon have been linked by a few, as well, to the early Jersey Payns.

Cornelius Lyde was a son of mayor Lyonel Lyde’s first wife, he was a Virginia planter, and, like his uncle Stephen Lyde, he resided in King William County. Lyonel Lyde’s children by his second wife, Anna Maria Payne, included a daughter Anna Maria who married merchant Chauncey Poole of Bristol, a son Samuel, and another son, Sir Lyonel Lyde of Bristol. Stephen Lyde of Virginia (brother to mayor Lyonel and uncle to Sir Lyonel Lyde) married Elizabeth Gwynn, and as a widow Elizabeth Lyde married John Tayloe. Several of these Lydes and this John Tayloe owned shares in the Iron Mines and Iron Works of King George County, Virginia. Iron ore from here and also Maryland was supplied to the English forges of wealthy ironmaster and merchant, Edward Knight. This Edward Knight of Wolverley (Worc.) was the son of Richard Knight and Elizabeth Payne. Their grandson, Richard Payne Knight, son of Rev. Thomas Knight, was a well-known English classical scholar and connoisseur best known for his theories of picturesque beauty. Richard Knight of Downton (Herts) had mining interests also in the county of Shropshire where Elizabeth Payne was born as the daughter of iron trader Andrew Payne of Shawbury. Again, as with Benjamin Payne of Wiltshire, very little seems easily available about this Andrew Payne of Shawbury in Shropshire. Andrew Payne was probably born there in about 1645. Andrew's wife was named Elizabeth also, and other than this daughter (Elizabeth, b. 1671), Andrew Payne seems to have sons Robert and Rafe Payne who were born there in 1662 and 1665.

Tracing the large and diversely located Knight family is challenging also, but it shows Knights related to the wealthy ironmasters Richard and Edward Knight marrying other Paynes in iron mining areas of Sussex/Surrey, such as near East Grinstead. The related Knights of Bristol, including Sir John Knight, were also among the most prominent of slave traders and sugar merchants doing business in places such as Barbados in the West Indies (where a large number of Paynes were located prior to 1700 and interacting in records with settlers there largely from Bristol and West Country families). Also as a relative was the Giles Knight who married an Elizabeth Payne (daughter of a George Payne) as his second wife. Giles Knight was apparently born around 1610 and probably at Lingfield in the county of Surrey. Records conflict as to whether Giles Knight married Elizabeth Payne in Lingfield, Surrey or later after he moved to Gloucestershire and to another mining area. There were many children from Giles Knight’s marriages, first to Elizabeth Williams and then Elizabeth Payne, and at least one of the children, and perhaps more, settled in the Byberry area of colonial and Quaker Pennsylvania. At least one Knight from this line apparently moved somewhat later to the Quaker settlement area around Albemarle and Chowan in early North Carolina.

I could provide more details in places above. I’ve been aware of most of these Payne names and places for years, but only recently have I seen a few more linkages among them. I haven’t posted these names and others, largely because I’m still trying to investigate and better understand them. I often arrive at apparent dead ends, though, where I can no further find information about individual lines with strong colonial connections, such as the Benjamin Payne of Chippingham, Wiltshire or the Andrew Payne of Shawbury, Shropshire. There’s a chance though that someone might recognize one of these Paynes and provide us with more details. The linkages of these particular Paynes to certain colonial business sectors probably add more support to Patrick Payne’s claims about a Payne merchant-mariner colonial network. I doubt that many Paynes who have been identified through the years on this list as merchants and mariners in England, America, etc. were part of a very formal and carefully organized Payne business network. However, I do believe that Paynes, Payns, Paines, etc. in colonial and pre-colonial England were very often descendants of medieval Paynels, Fitpayns, etc. who were involved with royalty and their business and personal interests. A continuing Payne entrepreneurial and patronage background appears to exist in which these descendants often worked together on business interests, particularly wine, cloth, iron, and sugar. Perhaps strong conflicts caused by the Reformation era, the English Civil War, and the later heated debates and ill feelings on the issue of anti-slavery (within England and led by the Quakers) distanced branches and members of these Payne families and has resulted in nothing like an overarching Payne history having been written. We can see plenty of evidence of Payne families who took opposing sides as Catholics vs. Protestants, royalists vs. parliamentarians, and Dissenters/Quakers vs. Puritans. I'm not sure that many Americans today realize fully the high level of personal antipathy or hatred that these political and religious conflicts caused in colonial England. Continuing torture over years (such as with Henry Neville Payne) and the executions of various Paynes in those eras likely created that level of ill will among countrymen and family branches.

Partial list of references:
* Genealogical memoranda of the family of Ames [descendant of the Lydes], p. 51. www.archive.org/stream/.../genealogicalmemo00ames_djvu.txt
* A2A: Wiltshire and Swindon Archives, Testimonials for surgeons, midwifes and schoolmasters
* A genealogical and heraldic history of the extinct and dormant baronetcies ... John Burke, Sir Bernard Burke, 1841, pp. 330-331.
* History of Hertfordshire. J.E. Cussans, 1972, p. 238.
* Masters and men: in the West Midland metalware trades before the industrial revolution. M. B. Rowlands, 1975, p. 64.
*The trade of Bristol in the eighteenth century. Edited by W. E. Minchinton, Bristol Record Society, 1957, p. 146.

The Mystery of Col. Richard Payne (?) of Gunley Hall

Patrick Payne and others doing research on colonial Paynes have occasionally posted concerning the marriage of Rosamund Saltonstall to a Col. Richard Payne of Gunley Hall, Montgomeryshire, Wales. Rosamund Saltonstall was a daughter of Richard Saltonstall, who came to New England with his family in about 1630, but he returned to England with Rosamund and certain others in his family shortly afterward. A Captain Charles Saltonstall is also associated with seafaring Paynes in the London/Stepney area who were visiting and trading in America in the mid- and later-1600s. This Saltonstall family, going back a couple of generations to Sir Peter and his father, Sir Richard Saltonstall, was heavily involved in colonial and overseas trade. Captain Charles Saltonstall appears to have been the son of a brother of Sir Peter Saltonstall (Sir Samuel Saltonstall), and a cousin of the Richard Saltonstall whose daughter was Rosamund (who supposedly married Col. Richard Payne of Gunley Hall). This would have been another Saltonstall linkage within the Payne trading network that Patrick has often described; however, something was wrong and/or confusing as I tried to collect more info about a Col. Richard Payne of Gunley Hall.

Yes, on many internet sites, the marriage of Rosamund Saltonstall to Col. Richard Payne of Gunley Hall, Montgomeryshire is cited. Gunley Hall, by the way, is an interesting spot. It's located right on the border between Montgomeryshire, Wales and Shropshire, England (where many Paynes resided then, earlier, and later). Looking through internet sites and books on Shropshire Paynes still didn't help me find candidates who might have been this Col.Richard Payne (who married Rosamund Saltonstall). Such lack of success is nothing new for me, and seems about 99.9% of my efforts on colonial Paynes. Now, though, I think I understand why I've had no success in the recent and distant past with this particular Col. Richard Payne. I now don’t believe that Rosamund Saltonstall married Col. Richard Payne of Gunley Hall; instead,she married Col. Richard Pryce/Price of that place. The Pryces had long been associated with Gunley, Montgomeryshire, and internet sites from several different books [including 1) The Parliamentary History of the Principality of Wales and 2) The Founders: Portraits of Persons Born Abroad Who Came to the Colonies in North America] clearly indicate a Col. Richard Pryce of Gunley married Rosamund Saltonstall. This Richard Pryce was the son of Edward Pryce of Gunley, and he supported and fought for the Parliamentary forces against the Royalty in the Civil War. He was high sheriff of Montgomeryshire in 1651, and a warrant for his arrest occurred in 1665 during the Restoration period. He was widowed when he married Rosamund Saltonstall (who was about the age of 33) in the mid-1640s. A copy of Rosamund's portrait can be found in the Google Book preview for The Founders (p. 811).

Patrick Payne's posts and other sites seem influenced by Robert Charles Anderson’s, The Great Migration Begins, Immigrants to New England 1620-1633, from the New England Historic Genealogical Society (which mentions this Col. Richard Payne of Gunley Hall). Perhaps Anderson made a copying/transcription error in his work in the 1990s from earlier sources. The other explanation for this discrepancy might be Col. Richard Pryce having had a Payne alias or he had a Payne background. I’ve explored that possibility a bit, and I can find at least a slight Pryce/Payne relationship. Apparently Col. Richard Pryce had no children by his first wife or by Rosamund Saltonstall (1612-1695) and left his Gunley estate to his nephew, Edmund, who was a son of his younger brother Edward. Edmund Pryce’s wife was Catherine Tanat and his mother-in-law was Jane Payne Tanat (who died in about 1682). Catherine Tanat also had a sister Jane Tanat who married a John Payne of Argoed, Shropshire. I doubt these Payne relationships with the nephew of Col. Richard Pryce really solve the mystery of why a Col. Richard Payne of Gunley Hall is often found in references, instead of the surname Pryce, but I hope it can help a few others who have been or would be frustrated in finding more about this particular Payne.

More Bristol Connections

In earlier posts, I've related how various Payns/Paynes in or near Bristol were closely connected to prominent colonial traders. This time I'll add somewhat to that account and suggest from where a few of those Payne merchants in the Bristol area came.

Two of the more significant Bristol-based investors in American colonization were Robert Aldworth and Giles Elbridge. In wills of both Aldworth and Elbridge, their kinsman George Payne was mentioned. George Payne had married a daughter of the sister of Aldworth and lived for a time in the Bristol sugarhouse of Aldworth. Merchants and Merchandise in Seventeenth Century Bristol (available on Google Books -- p. 4) mentions that a George Payne was apprenticed to this Robert Aldworth in 1616 in the sugar business, but he later became a Bristol merchant. Part of what is interesting in this source is George Payne's background. If my poor understanding of Latin (from a paragraph in this source) and English geographical references is correct, this George Payne was the son of the George Payne of St. Erth or St. Ives in county Cornwall. George Payne of St. Ives, gent. had a will proved in March 1617/18 in which he left 10 pounds each to a number of sons, including a George.

Another son of George Payne, gent. of St. Ives, Cornwall was a William Payne (b. 1597), and he was also a Bristol merchant in the mid-1600s. This William Payne was also closely related to well-known American traders and promoters. William Payne's will in 1669 provides the following info:
1) He was born in St. Erth near St. Ives and had a brother John Payne and a sister Jane Dunn of St. Erth (also mentioned in the 1617/18 will of George Payne, gent., of St. Ives); 2) he had two son-in-laws by the names of Joseph Yeamans and James Whitwood; and 3) he had a daughter Mary Payne who was his executrix and a son John who was in Ireland. Son-in-law James Whitwood was a Bristol merchant who owned a trading ship called the Contents of Bristol in 1675, but Joseph Yeamans is the more interesting connection. In 1647, Joseph Yeamans had married this William Payne's daughter Elizabeth, and he evenually inherited a Bristol brewhouse called the Rose and Crown that this William Payne had owned. Joseph Yeamans was a brother to both Sir Robert Yeamans and Sir John Yeamans. The Yeamans family were heavily involved in trade and colonization efforts in Barbados and Carolina. [Thanks to Karen Sims for pointing me in the direction of this will of William Payne of Bristol].

So there appear to have been two Payne merchants in Bristol who were brothers (George & William), and they were orginally from St. Erth/Ives, Cornwall where Paynes earlier, such as their father George, had been burgesses and/or portreeves/mayors. Their older brother John Payne seems to have remained in that part of Cornwall, where he and his sons were land owners and involved in local government. St. Ives in Cornwall has a connection to another prominent Payne family in London and later in Petworth, Sussex [that researcher Dick Payne has focused on recently] . A John Payne, described as of Pallenswick in Hammersmith, was elected as a member of Parliament in 1628 (W.P. Courtney's Parliamentary History of Cornwall, p. 65).

Colonial Connections It's been almost a year since my last post. Although I've been as active as before in trying to discover Payne colonial connections, my focus over that time was more often on the London area and several Payne families in London (or close to it) who had relatives and friends involved in colonial business and settlement. I hadn't discovered much yet that seemed worthy of sharing, particularly as it didn't relate strongly to what I had posted earlier about Paynes in the West Country. I have recently found, though, what seems to be a useful angle for further Payne research in the West Country. One of the eight Carolina proprietors was Gen. George Monck, Duke of Albemarle. His younger brother, a clergyman named Nicholas Monck, had a role to play in the restoration of Charles II to the monarchy when he secretly visited his older brother to determine if he would lend his support to this restoration effort, See a chapter entitled "Nicholas Monk, the King's Messenger and the Honest Clergyman" in Report and Transactions, Vol. 31, of the Devonshire Association for the Advancement of Science, Literature, and Art, by Frances B. Troup, 1899. Both of the Monck brothers were later rewarded by Charles II. Nicholas Monck became the Bishop of Hereford and Provost of Eton shortly before his death in 1661. Nicholas Monck had married Susanna Payne, the daughter of Thomas Payne, rector of Plymtree (Devon). When Thomas Payne of Plymtree died (1567-1646), his son-in-law Nicholas Monck had succeeded him as rector of Plymtree. It appears that Thomas Payne of Plymtree had been married twice (1- Grace ? & 2- Mary ?) and had children by both women. Beyond the marriage of Susanna Payne to Nicholas Monck, Thomas Payne's other daughters apparently married in Plymtree the following: Hugh Canworthy (Grace -- 1625), William Colchette (Jane --1621), and William Payne (Elizabeth -- 1634), and Humphrey Walrond (Sarah -- 1634) . The Monck and Granville families in the West Country were wealthy and related. Sir Thomas Monck (father of Gen. George and Bishop Nicholas Monck) had married Elizabeth, a daughter of Sir George Smythe of Maydford (near Exeter, Devon), while Sir Bevill Granville had married another daughter, Grace, of this same Sir George Smythe. Bevill Granville, and his son John Granville (Earl of Bath) had as their servant, a son of one of their tenants, the Cornwall Giant, Anthony Payne, who saved the life of the son John when his father Beville fell in a battle in the Civil War. When Gen. George Monck died, his son Christopher succeeded him as the 2nd Duke of Albemarle and a Carolina proprietor. Nicholas and Susanna Payne Monck had two daughters, one married Arthur Fairwell (Mary) and one married Curwen Rawlinson (Elizabeth). The son of Curwen Rawlinson and Elizabeth Monck was christened Christopher after his godfather, the 2nd Duke of Albemarle. This Christopher Rawlinson (grandson of Susanna Payne) was set to inherit all of the Duke of Albemarle estates should he outlive the elderly Grace Smythe Granville, widow of Sir Bevill Granville, but he died of smallpox just a month before Grace did, and the Albemarle estates eventually came to living Granville family members (such as John Granville, Earl of Bath). From the work of Patrick Payne and others, we know that some Paynes, particularly in Jersey and associated with the Carterets, were supporters of the Royalty during the Civil War. Shortly after the restoration of Charles II, we can also see a couple of specific cases of Paynes being appointed to key offices in Ireland by Charles II: 1) a Captain John Paine in Feb. 1661 as Overseer and Director General of the King's Fortifications and Plantations there, and 2) a Robert Payne in March 1661 as Auditor of the Excise in Ireland. Who are these two Paynes? Are they related to Jersey Paynes or to ones such as the Thomas and William Payne in Plymtree, Devon (closely related to the Dukes of Albemarle)? Was the Thomas Payne of Plymtree at all related to Anthony Payne of Cornwall? Given the Carolina lands of the Moncks, did Paynes related to Thomas Payne of Plymtree get Carolina land or offices? Perhaps at least one Carolina connection exists. A deputy of the 2nd Duke of Albemarle in Albemarle, Carolina was James Hill. He was from York Co., VA and had married Hannah Bassett Phelps (a Quaker who had left Massachusetts and was an early settler in Albemarle). Among those transported to Albemarle by Hannah Hill, beyond her Phelps and Hill relatives, was a Robert Paine (who probably died in 1671 and had a son called at times Stephen or John Payne). So we can see Payne connections to at least three Carolina proprietors -- the Moncks, the Granvilles, and the Carterets. I also wonder about the marriage of a daughter of this Thomas Payne of Plymtree to a Humphrey Walrond. There were several Humphrey Walronds in Devon at that time, a few of of them closely related, and one of them had a big role in the colonization of Barbados. It's difficult to determine precisely which of these Humphey Walronds married Sarah Payne in 1634, but it doesn't appear to me to be the more prominent Walrond. I don't know if any researchers are examining a Plymtree, Devon branch of Paynes, but it could well be one branch worth further study.

Lancastrian Connections


Patrick Payne posted on the Payne-L Rootsweb list over a year ago a very good description of John Payn of Wymondham (Norfolk). He is obviously a central part of Patrick’s research for several reasons, particularly since this John Payn was an apparent ancestor for many later Paynes who came to America. As chief butler to Henry IV, Payn had a long and close relationship to Henry IV that Patrick described in that post. I’m going to add some more info related to such Payn connections to Lancastrian kings, since I think it helps explain how a Payn merchant-mariner network probably existed even centuries before the American colonial period. John Payn of Wymondham was only one important person in that early network.

First, some of you may not understand, as I didn’t until recently, the implications of the title of chief butler to a Lancastrian king. As Patrick suggests in his post, John Payn had been in charge of handling provisions for Henry Bolingbroke in his campaigns prior to his becoming king. A key concern of a chief butler was providing wine to the royals, and it involved his supervision of deputies appointed for each of many of the English ports. The Lancastrian kings owned ships that undertook both military concerns and significant trade activities, particularly in wine, cloths, and iron. Payn could not have undertaken such a role without a background in shipping and commerce, and indeed Payns in various parts of England earlier and later appear as traders of wine, cloth, and iron. One William Payn of Hampshire, for example, was a mariner who exported wine, fish, honey and cloths in the 1420s. He traded jointly with William Soper, the famous ship builder and keeper of the Lancastrian royal fleet (with its usual home port in Southampton). William Soper was in charge of the construction finished in 1420 of the largest ship (1400 wine tuns called the “Grace Dieu”) built in England until the sixteenth century, and William Payn was its master. More info on William Soper and William Payn is available from one internet source. [The Navy of the Lancastrian Kings: Accounts and Inventories of William Soper, Keeper of the Kings Ships 1422-1427 – edited by Dr. Susan Rose]. Other sources show William Payn’s rise in status in 1416 and 1417 as master of smaller ships (a balinger and carrack) in that fleet. This William Payn was involved in a trading partnership with, and probably related to, John Payn, wealthy Southampton merchant and London grocer. John Payn and his grandson Thomas Payn were mayors of Southampton, and these Payns were associated in business transactions with other London and Southampton merchants

Other Payns were also well-connected to Lancastrian monarchs, including a sister of Henry IV (Philippa) who married King John (or Joao) of Portugal. Joyce Coleman in her chapter “Philippa of Lancaster: Queen of Portugal and Patron of the Gower Translation,” in Maria Bullon-Fernandz’s England and Iberia in the Middle Ages, describes a Robert Payn who translated the Gower manuscript into Portuguese and was a member of that royal household, as well as later the Canon of Lisbon. She speculates that this Robert Payn was the son of Sir Thomas Payn, Queen Philippa’s personal secretary and treasurer. She also hypothesizes that another Robert Payn who was a groom of the royal chamber for both Richard II and Henry IV was a brother of this Sir Thomas Payn.

With the explosion of early English records available now on the internet, one can be almost overwhelmed with references to Payns/Fitzpayns/Paynes who were involved in trade and commerce and who held appointments under Lancastrian and Tudor monarchs. I’ve only touched on some of the more prominent ones that I’ve discovered in this and earlier posts. Making much sense of these possible family relationships or any trading network among these many Paynes continues to be a tough challenge.

EARLY ON

Charles Worthy in 1896 provided a commentary on Paynels, Fitz-Payns and Payns in the West Country on pages 431-432 of his book [DEVONSHIRE WILLS: A COLLECTION OF ANNOTATED TESTAMENTARY ABSTRACTS].

"Ralph Paganel, or Paynel, whose immediate descendants were known as "Fitz-Payne," appears in Domesday as Sheriff of Yorkshire, in which county he had fifteen manors in 1087, a like number in Lincolnshire, five in Somerset, and ten, inclusive of the Manor of Washfield, in this county [Devonshire], in which all his lands are entered as those of "a free Knight." His three younger sons, Ralph, Reginald, and Robert Fitz-Payne, settled in Devonshire, and are believed to have first come here with the Conqueror's army in its march westward in the year 1067. His eldest son, Fulk Fitz-Paynel, married Beatrix, daughter and heir of William Fitz-Asculph, and thus acquired the Staffordshire Manor of Dudley, and had a son, Ralph,* whose son, Gervase Fitz-Paynel, as " Baron of Dudley," attended the ceremony of the coronation of Richard " Cceur de Lion." Another son of this Ralph, " William Fitz-Payne," acquired the Devonshire Barony of Bampton by marriage with the daughter and heir of Robert de Douay."

We can see this particular family name shifting from Paganel or Paynel, to Fitz-Payn, and to Payn and their having much property in the West Country (including Devon, Dorset, Somerset, Gloucester, Hampshire, etc.). The Payne lines that interest me most seem to have derived from two powerful and influential families in the 1100s (the Paynels above, from Yorkshire and Devon/Bampton, and William Fitz-John, a top military leader for Henry I fighting on the Welsh border and erecting Payn Castle). I believe that the Sir Robert Fitz-Paynes (also military leaders serving English kings) who came later had these roots, and their descendents were certain Payns and Paynes in Devon, Dorset, Somerset, and Hampshire who were well connected with nobility and royalty and were heavily involved in shipping and trade abroad by the early 1400s. Fitz-Payns in the West Country seemed linked also to Paynels and Payns already in the Island of Jersey, with at least one West Country Fitz-Payn buying much property there in the 1300s. These Paynels, Fitz-Paynes, and Payns were related closely and very early on to the Berkeley family (perhaps the most influential family in the English West Country) and they served several of these Berkeleys later as key aids/assistants. Branches of the Berkeley family (those extending from the Mowbrays, who married into them, and all of the way down to the John Berkeley who founded the Virginia ironworks in the 1620s) seem particularly worthy of Payne research, especially since the John Payn of Wymondham (who appears to be a common ancestor for many current Paynes involved in DNA testing and analysis) was apparently a tenant there in Wymondham around 1400 of the Mowbrays.

Patrick Payne introduced the notion of a merchant-mariner network of Paynes in the early settlement of America and covered a lot of ground in detailing pieces of this network. I'm hoping that Patrick and a few others doing Payne research will slowly be able to fill in more pieces of this challenging and very interesting puzzle.