Colonial Payne Connections
A Long Introduction
Patrick Payne has accomplished much in the last decade linking colonial American Paynes to their roots in England and describing what he has called an extensive “merchant-mariner” network. His work on the Payne DNA project has also provided a better understanding of how our own known ancestors relate to other Payne branches or lines. Still, many Paynes have not been able to go beyond “brick walls’ in their own personal ancestry, with a block existing before a particular ancestor living somewhere between 1650 and 1800.
I started about a decade ago trying to trace my own Payne line, and ran into a “brick wall” in about 1740 in North Carolina. I’ve been too stubborn to give up though, and my strategy has been to expand my research to include all North American colonies, Ireland, and England. I thought that if I better understood certain Payne families or branches in England and Ireland, I might be able to determine which families were more likely to have come to America and eventually lived in early North Carolina. Even if I never could trace forward my own personal Payne line, I could collect research and might be able to share information on early Paynes that could help others in their individual research. From time to time, I have posted on the Payne-L Rootsweb list such information from a number of different sources and locations. One quandary for me has been how much and what background information on early Paynes to post. Most Payne researchers are probably focused quite narrowly on their own personal lines and not that interested in reading much background, general, or exploratory information.
Since I had been using this blog site for students to supplement in-class discussions in my graduate business ethics courses and I recently retired from college teaching, I thought that I might use this site to share some of what I’ve found interesting in early Payne research. Much of this information, at this time, does not offer obvious breakthroughs into mysteries surrounding early American Payne families, but most of this information seems relevant and possibly useful for serious researchers who are trying to make linkages between Paynes in the Old and New Worlds. Much of my attention has been placed on Payne families in sixteenth and seventeenth century England who were fairly prosperous and were involved with or had connections to merchants and shipping interests, particularly in London and Bristol.
Beyond Patrick Payne’s many posts on Rootsweb listservs, he has been trying to organize and summarize his conclusions about several key English Payne family lines from which members had definitely or probably arrived in America. About four years ago, he shared with me a long PowerPoint presentation that he had developed that focused on Huntingdonshire, Suffolk (and later in Fulham and places near London), and Gloucestershire Paynes. It was a valuable resource for what I wanted to try to do. I hoped to extend beyond his work so far to find other Paynes in other English counties who also had ties to influential merchants/mariners and known American colonizers. It appeared to me that Paynes in several other locations in England, particularly in Somerset and the West Country, had as much or more contact with influential merchants and individuals involved in colonizing America as the Paynes that Patrick has described. I can’t yet find direct or enough evidence yet that members from these additional Payne branches in England actually came to America to make definitive claims. It does seem surprising, though, that several of these fairly well-to-do Payne branches with numerous male offspring seem to disappear or get lost suddenly from records associated with their respective locations. It also seems interesting that some of their neighbors, friends and relatives do appear in our colonial records.
I cannot begin to compete with Patrick’s motivation, knowledge and skills as a Payne researcher, and I have a somewhat different style as a researcher. Genealogical work can be based on many assumptions; some of these assumptions are explicitly shared and some are often much more implicit. My own research goals or assumptions are occasionally idiosyncratic ones. Since I’m doing the research and sometimes sharing the information, the reader can make what they want of its quality or value. I don’t mind, and even would like, suggestions relative to this work, but I don’t guarantee that I’ll listen – particularly if following such advice seems to cramp my own style or interferes with the motivation and pleasure that I find in doing this type of work. For example, I never completely buy into published “facts” or “original’ records, no matter the quality of the source. Even the best resources can include mistakes based on different types of errors in reporting on actual events and people. However, I don’t completely dismiss information that comes even from questionable resources. Even incorrect or “misleading” information can occasionally have some value in helping initiate a research angle that later becomes a worthwhile pursuit leading to new and more reasonable information. I’m hardly an “objectivist” in evaluating information and information sources as well; it seems to me that the best that we can hope for is "intersubjectivity” or information that has been largely accepted as true due to stronger evidence and reasoning from multiple sources. Part of the pleasure in undertaking this type of research for me is occasionally turning to a “speculative” side – if only to determine a likely or possible direction to proceed in collecting more information. I've reached the point in my colonial and English Payne research when I now believe that I am close to making some breakthroughs and determining several additional channels or routes through which certain Paynes in England migrated to places along the east coast of America, and it might be useful to share this information as I try to develop it further.
Among my deficits as an amateur genealogist is not traveling as Patrick and others have done to those counties and locations in England for which I have more interest. I tend to rely on fairly common and available published or internet resources. I try to compensate somewhat for such deficits by spending much time and brute force in cross-referencing searches, considerable note taking, and following a lot of inferences/hunches where these seem to take me. I’m a firm believer in transparency and dialogue. We all have strengths and weaknesses as researchers, and I really wish that some of the more serious or dedicated Payne researchers could somehow pool our diverse interests and talents.
From time to time, I'll also share info on prominent and interesting Paynes in English and colonial history who seem to have received little attention that I've seen from Patrick and other Payne researchers -- whether these individuals have yet to have been shown as directly connected with Paynes settling in colonial America. One example follows:
Sir John Payne/Paine was born about 1623, knighted in July 1663, became steward of the Charterhouse, Middlesex, and had property in Stratford, Herefordshire which he and his wife Alice sold in 1670. Also in 1670, he leased the manor of Tuffleigh/Tuffley in Gloucestershire. He married Alice Smyth in 1663, the former wife of Richard Smyth of Gilstone, Hertfordshire and daughter of Sir John Gore of the same town in Hertfordshire). Dame Alice Payne died in 1704 and is buried in the Chancel at St. Dionis Backchurch. This Sir John Payne seems to have had at least two sons, Robert and John Payne. Robert who went to Oxford, was a barrister of the Inner Temple and was buried at the Temple Church in August 1723. John Payne followed his father at the Charterhouse, but was involved in a scandal and imprisoned. Sir John Gore appears to be the uncle of Sir Thomas Gore and brother of William Gore, both of Barrow Gurney, Somerset. A daughter of this Sir Thomas Gore and his wife, Philippa Tooker (sister of Sir Giles Tooker), was a Jane Raynor who later married Richard Baskerville after Richard Raynor died in 1696. The Gores were heavily involved in trade, particularly in northern Europe, from the time of an earlier Sir John Gore, mayor of London.
Posted by: Steve Payne, Milledgeville, GA steve.payne@gcsu.edu
A Long Introduction
Patrick Payne has accomplished much in the last decade linking colonial American Paynes to their roots in England and describing what he has called an extensive “merchant-mariner” network. His work on the Payne DNA project has also provided a better understanding of how our own known ancestors relate to other Payne branches or lines. Still, many Paynes have not been able to go beyond “brick walls’ in their own personal ancestry, with a block existing before a particular ancestor living somewhere between 1650 and 1800.
I started about a decade ago trying to trace my own Payne line, and ran into a “brick wall” in about 1740 in North Carolina. I’ve been too stubborn to give up though, and my strategy has been to expand my research to include all North American colonies, Ireland, and England. I thought that if I better understood certain Payne families or branches in England and Ireland, I might be able to determine which families were more likely to have come to America and eventually lived in early North Carolina. Even if I never could trace forward my own personal Payne line, I could collect research and might be able to share information on early Paynes that could help others in their individual research. From time to time, I have posted on the Payne-L Rootsweb list such information from a number of different sources and locations. One quandary for me has been how much and what background information on early Paynes to post. Most Payne researchers are probably focused quite narrowly on their own personal lines and not that interested in reading much background, general, or exploratory information.
Since I had been using this blog site for students to supplement in-class discussions in my graduate business ethics courses and I recently retired from college teaching, I thought that I might use this site to share some of what I’ve found interesting in early Payne research. Much of this information, at this time, does not offer obvious breakthroughs into mysteries surrounding early American Payne families, but most of this information seems relevant and possibly useful for serious researchers who are trying to make linkages between Paynes in the Old and New Worlds. Much of my attention has been placed on Payne families in sixteenth and seventeenth century England who were fairly prosperous and were involved with or had connections to merchants and shipping interests, particularly in London and Bristol.
Beyond Patrick Payne’s many posts on Rootsweb listservs, he has been trying to organize and summarize his conclusions about several key English Payne family lines from which members had definitely or probably arrived in America. About four years ago, he shared with me a long PowerPoint presentation that he had developed that focused on Huntingdonshire, Suffolk (and later in Fulham and places near London), and Gloucestershire Paynes. It was a valuable resource for what I wanted to try to do. I hoped to extend beyond his work so far to find other Paynes in other English counties who also had ties to influential merchants/mariners and known American colonizers. It appeared to me that Paynes in several other locations in England, particularly in Somerset and the West Country, had as much or more contact with influential merchants and individuals involved in colonizing America as the Paynes that Patrick has described. I can’t yet find direct or enough evidence yet that members from these additional Payne branches in England actually came to America to make definitive claims. It does seem surprising, though, that several of these fairly well-to-do Payne branches with numerous male offspring seem to disappear or get lost suddenly from records associated with their respective locations. It also seems interesting that some of their neighbors, friends and relatives do appear in our colonial records.
I cannot begin to compete with Patrick’s motivation, knowledge and skills as a Payne researcher, and I have a somewhat different style as a researcher. Genealogical work can be based on many assumptions; some of these assumptions are explicitly shared and some are often much more implicit. My own research goals or assumptions are occasionally idiosyncratic ones. Since I’m doing the research and sometimes sharing the information, the reader can make what they want of its quality or value. I don’t mind, and even would like, suggestions relative to this work, but I don’t guarantee that I’ll listen – particularly if following such advice seems to cramp my own style or interferes with the motivation and pleasure that I find in doing this type of work. For example, I never completely buy into published “facts” or “original’ records, no matter the quality of the source. Even the best resources can include mistakes based on different types of errors in reporting on actual events and people. However, I don’t completely dismiss information that comes even from questionable resources. Even incorrect or “misleading” information can occasionally have some value in helping initiate a research angle that later becomes a worthwhile pursuit leading to new and more reasonable information. I’m hardly an “objectivist” in evaluating information and information sources as well; it seems to me that the best that we can hope for is "intersubjectivity” or information that has been largely accepted as true due to stronger evidence and reasoning from multiple sources. Part of the pleasure in undertaking this type of research for me is occasionally turning to a “speculative” side – if only to determine a likely or possible direction to proceed in collecting more information. I've reached the point in my colonial and English Payne research when I now believe that I am close to making some breakthroughs and determining several additional channels or routes through which certain Paynes in England migrated to places along the east coast of America, and it might be useful to share this information as I try to develop it further.
Among my deficits as an amateur genealogist is not traveling as Patrick and others have done to those counties and locations in England for which I have more interest. I tend to rely on fairly common and available published or internet resources. I try to compensate somewhat for such deficits by spending much time and brute force in cross-referencing searches, considerable note taking, and following a lot of inferences/hunches where these seem to take me. I’m a firm believer in transparency and dialogue. We all have strengths and weaknesses as researchers, and I really wish that some of the more serious or dedicated Payne researchers could somehow pool our diverse interests and talents.
From time to time, I'll also share info on prominent and interesting Paynes in English and colonial history who seem to have received little attention that I've seen from Patrick and other Payne researchers -- whether these individuals have yet to have been shown as directly connected with Paynes settling in colonial America. One example follows:
Sir John Payne/Paine was born about 1623, knighted in July 1663, became steward of the Charterhouse, Middlesex, and had property in Stratford, Herefordshire which he and his wife Alice sold in 1670. Also in 1670, he leased the manor of Tuffleigh/Tuffley in Gloucestershire. He married Alice Smyth in 1663, the former wife of Richard Smyth of Gilstone, Hertfordshire and daughter of Sir John Gore of the same town in Hertfordshire). Dame Alice Payne died in 1704 and is buried in the Chancel at St. Dionis Backchurch. This Sir John Payne seems to have had at least two sons, Robert and John Payne. Robert who went to Oxford, was a barrister of the Inner Temple and was buried at the Temple Church in August 1723. John Payne followed his father at the Charterhouse, but was involved in a scandal and imprisoned. Sir John Gore appears to be the uncle of Sir Thomas Gore and brother of William Gore, both of Barrow Gurney, Somerset. A daughter of this Sir Thomas Gore and his wife, Philippa Tooker (sister of Sir Giles Tooker), was a Jane Raynor who later married Richard Baskerville after Richard Raynor died in 1696. The Gores were heavily involved in trade, particularly in northern Europe, from the time of an earlier Sir John Gore, mayor of London.
Posted by: Steve Payne, Milledgeville, GA steve.payne@gcsu.edu
posted by Steve | 11:49 PM
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