Lancastrian Connections
Patrick Payne posted on the Payne-L Rootsweb list over a year ago a very good description of John Payn of Wymondham (Norfolk). He is obviously a central part of Patrick’s research for several reasons, particularly since this John Payn was an apparent ancestor for many later Paynes who came to America. As chief butler to Henry IV, Payn had a long and close relationship to Henry IV that Patrick described in that post. I’m going to add some more info related to such Payn connections to Lancastrian kings, since I think it helps explain how a Payn merchant-mariner network probably existed even centuries before the American colonial period. John Payn of Wymondham was only one important person in that early network.
First, some of you may not understand, as I didn’t until recently, the implications of the title of chief butler to a Lancastrian king. As Patrick suggests in his post, John Payn had been in charge of handling provisions for Henry Bolingbroke in his campaigns prior to his becoming king. A key concern of a chief butler was providing wine to the royals, and it involved his supervision of deputies appointed for each of many of the English ports. The Lancastrian kings owned ships that undertook both military concerns and significant trade activities, particularly in wine, cloths, and iron. Payn could not have undertaken such a role without a background in shipping and commerce, and indeed Payns in various parts of England earlier and later appear as traders of wine, cloth, and iron. One William Payn of Hampshire, for example, was a mariner who exported wine, fish, honey and cloths in the 1420s. He traded jointly with William Soper, the famous ship builder and keeper of the Lancastrian royal fleet (with its usual home port in Southampton). William Soper was in charge of the construction finished in 1420 of the largest ship (1400 wine tuns called the “Grace Dieu”) built in England until the sixteenth century, and William Payn was its master. More info on William Soper and William Payn is available from one internet source. [The Navy of the Lancastrian Kings: Accounts and Inventories of William Soper, Keeper of the Kings Ships 1422-1427 – edited by Dr. Susan Rose]. Other sources show William Payn’s rise in status in 1416 and 1417 as master of smaller ships (a balinger and carrack) in that fleet. This William Payn was involved in a trading partnership with, and probably related to, John Payn, wealthy Southampton merchant and London grocer. John Payn and his grandson Thomas Payn were mayors of Southampton, and these Payns were associated in business transactions with other London and Southampton merchants
Other Payns were also well-connected to Lancastrian monarchs, including a sister of Henry IV (Philippa) who married King John (or Joao) of Portugal. Joyce Coleman in her chapter “Philippa of Lancaster: Queen of Portugal and Patron of the Gower Translation,” in Maria Bullon-Fernandz’s England and Iberia in the Middle Ages, describes a Robert Payn who translated the Gower manuscript into Portuguese and was a member of that royal household, as well as later the Canon of Lisbon. She speculates that this Robert Payn was the son of Sir Thomas Payn, Queen Philippa’s personal secretary and treasurer. She also hypothesizes that another Robert Payn who was a groom of the royal chamber for both Richard II and Henry IV was a brother of this Sir Thomas Payn.
With the explosion of early English records available now on the internet, one can be almost overwhelmed with references to Payns/Fitzpayns/Paynes who were involved in trade and commerce and who held appointments under Lancastrian and Tudor monarchs. I’ve only touched on some of the more prominent ones that I’ve discovered in this and earlier posts. Making much sense of these possible family relationships or any trading network among these many Paynes continues to be a tough challenge.
Patrick Payne posted on the Payne-L Rootsweb list over a year ago a very good description of John Payn of Wymondham (Norfolk). He is obviously a central part of Patrick’s research for several reasons, particularly since this John Payn was an apparent ancestor for many later Paynes who came to America. As chief butler to Henry IV, Payn had a long and close relationship to Henry IV that Patrick described in that post. I’m going to add some more info related to such Payn connections to Lancastrian kings, since I think it helps explain how a Payn merchant-mariner network probably existed even centuries before the American colonial period. John Payn of Wymondham was only one important person in that early network.
First, some of you may not understand, as I didn’t until recently, the implications of the title of chief butler to a Lancastrian king. As Patrick suggests in his post, John Payn had been in charge of handling provisions for Henry Bolingbroke in his campaigns prior to his becoming king. A key concern of a chief butler was providing wine to the royals, and it involved his supervision of deputies appointed for each of many of the English ports. The Lancastrian kings owned ships that undertook both military concerns and significant trade activities, particularly in wine, cloths, and iron. Payn could not have undertaken such a role without a background in shipping and commerce, and indeed Payns in various parts of England earlier and later appear as traders of wine, cloth, and iron. One William Payn of Hampshire, for example, was a mariner who exported wine, fish, honey and cloths in the 1420s. He traded jointly with William Soper, the famous ship builder and keeper of the Lancastrian royal fleet (with its usual home port in Southampton). William Soper was in charge of the construction finished in 1420 of the largest ship (1400 wine tuns called the “Grace Dieu”) built in England until the sixteenth century, and William Payn was its master. More info on William Soper and William Payn is available from one internet source. [The Navy of the Lancastrian Kings: Accounts and Inventories of William Soper, Keeper of the Kings Ships 1422-1427 – edited by Dr. Susan Rose]. Other sources show William Payn’s rise in status in 1416 and 1417 as master of smaller ships (a balinger and carrack) in that fleet. This William Payn was involved in a trading partnership with, and probably related to, John Payn, wealthy Southampton merchant and London grocer. John Payn and his grandson Thomas Payn were mayors of Southampton, and these Payns were associated in business transactions with other London and Southampton merchants
Other Payns were also well-connected to Lancastrian monarchs, including a sister of Henry IV (Philippa) who married King John (or Joao) of Portugal. Joyce Coleman in her chapter “Philippa of Lancaster: Queen of Portugal and Patron of the Gower Translation,” in Maria Bullon-Fernandz’s England and Iberia in the Middle Ages, describes a Robert Payn who translated the Gower manuscript into Portuguese and was a member of that royal household, as well as later the Canon of Lisbon. She speculates that this Robert Payn was the son of Sir Thomas Payn, Queen Philippa’s personal secretary and treasurer. She also hypothesizes that another Robert Payn who was a groom of the royal chamber for both Richard II and Henry IV was a brother of this Sir Thomas Payn.
With the explosion of early English records available now on the internet, one can be almost overwhelmed with references to Payns/Fitzpayns/Paynes who were involved in trade and commerce and who held appointments under Lancastrian and Tudor monarchs. I’ve only touched on some of the more prominent ones that I’ve discovered in this and earlier posts. Making much sense of these possible family relationships or any trading network among these many Paynes continues to be a tough challenge.
posted by Steve | 12:47 AM
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